Phal. schilleriana, do they always have barred leaves?

Post your questions and photos to identify a species phalaenopsis. We maybe able to identify a primary hybrid between two species parents. Generally we cannot identify a complex hybrid.
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NHguy03276
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Phal. schilleriana, do they always have barred leaves?

Post by NHguy03276 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:56 am

I've been seeing a lot of people post pictures on another board (amateur growers) that are labeled Phal. schilleriana. All of them have leaf patterning similar to P.stuartiana, and the telltale patterning of P. stuartiana on the septals/lip. I believe all of these "schilleriana" to be Phal Wiganiae or some other similar hybrid. When questioned most say they bought them as P. schilleriana (I didn't think to ask were from, but based off of what I can see of the tag, at least one is from Normans Orchids), and I'm wondering if a flask got mislabeled someplace. But before I make anymore enemies, All the P. schilleriana I've seen have distinct bands, and I just wondering if some don't, and I'm in error.

link to a picture of one of the plants in question: https://preview.redd.it/fas0tgtzfr821.j ... ab985ef1c0

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Re: Phal. schilleriana, do they always have barred leaves?

Post by peterlin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:39 pm

That does look like a hybrid, not Phal schilleriana.

The spottings in lateral sepals, yellow side lobes, but most importantly the shape of the lip is suggesting that this is not a true Phal schilleriana.

http://www.phals.net/schilleriana/
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Re: Phal. schilleriana, do they always have barred leaves?

Post by WaltonInlet » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:54 am

Perhaps it is the angle of the photo, but it almost looks to me like, both in the lip and the spiraling arrangement on the spike that this might even have some equestris in its background. Just a suggestion.

By the way, I got a great good chuckle from your note to the effect, "...before I make any more enemies." Ah, yes, indeed. I have the good fortune to know some VERY life-long taxonomists like Marv Ragan, who is now 87 years old and has "war stories" of battles between taxonomists over many many decades. Personally, I have made my own enmities (if not enemies, outright...) by coining a phrase for them as a group: "taxonomistas," perilously combining the concept of the Sandanistas and taxonomists. You can imagine how many dinner invitations THAT one got me!! Wait: there is more! I am sitting on a program called, "The Life and Times of Encyclia tampensis (Lindley) in Myakka River State Park." I have only given the program once -- in the same county as the Park (for my own safety!) because I knew the audience would agree with me based on their own hiking experience in the wilderness there. Aside from interesting, entirely previously unpublished color forms including semi-alba aquinii and near-coerulea, there is one plant that blows the lid off of the concept that tampensis is a "straight" species and proves, without a reasonable doubt, that it is what is loosely referred to as a "hybrid swarm." This particular plant has a lip that is stunningly similar to Enc. gracilis, with radiating lines from under the column all the way to the end of the lip, instead of the usually more solid pattern. The petals are likewise striated -- not just shaded. It is such an important plant that I met with the Park's State Biologist to see the plant in flower in the wild and GPS-mark its location. Personally, I am a "lumper," not a "splitter" when it comes to taxonomy, but in this case, I just cannot accept that tampensis is a "straight" species. I have requests to give this program elsewhere but...given the egos of some who would be in the audience and swear that tampensis is a stand-alone species, I have declined the speaking engagements! Point being, you are spot-on in knowing the equivalent of muriatic acid into which we all dip our toes when we question species identification. My advice to you would be: CARRY ON! Be a stronger man than I!
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Re: Phal. schilleriana, do they always have barred leaves?

Post by NHguy03276 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:56 pm

Here is another picture of the plant. https://preview.redd.it/ifbvcfxdwlb21.j ... 34ae00942b ,not that it is really needed, but I saw this one and said there is no way I would ever put this plant in front of anyone who knew orchids and claim it to be a P. schilleriana... If they had said it was a P. Jiaho's Pink Girl, I wouldn't have bat an eye.

But when I made the comment that I'd seen several "schilleriana" plants lately that all looked like this, and that I thought they might be a hybrid based on leaf/septal patterning of P. stuartiana/P.schilleriana, and wondered if a flask got mislabeled someplace, I got a reply that "Colorform and morphology isn't a good indicator of a species, and there is a growing movement that believes P.stuartiana and P. schilleriana should be a single species" with a link to the Manila Bulletin's Agriculture page and a well written, but fluff piece about P.schilleriana/P.struatiana. I replied with a "Until the IBC make the change and the AOS/RHS accept the change, I'm going to treat them as separate species" His reply to that made it clear that there was no further point in continuing the "discussion", as my rule when it comes to arguing with people online is be summed up by the line from the movie Wargames (1983), "The only winning move is not to play."

Plant identification is a very interesting but touchy subject. In that other forum, almost daily I or someone has to tell a newcomer that there is no way to ID their NoID grocery store (Phal, Onc., Onc. intergenetic, Catt.) and that the best we can do is name off some similar plants for people who might want a named version, yet we also have to tell people you can't always trust tags either, even when bought from a reputable source. I had bought a Phal. Mambo a little over a year ago, but it has been confirmed by both the grower (Ten Shin) and the vendor (Marlows Orchids) that it is in fact a Phal. Almanis (P. mannii 'Dark' X P. speciosa). It took looking at hundreds hundreds of photos, a careful study of my plant, and talking to the vendor/grower to confirm, but I still had lingering doubts until I saw a P. Almanis (P. mannii 'Dark' X P. speciosa) in person, and in bloom on Ten Shin's table.

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