Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

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Los Christabel
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Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Los Christabel » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:31 am

I have been studying all crosses made with GSC. Most interesting to me is not what crosses have been made, but what crosses haven't. The most successful crosses made have been yellow species with the ability to transmit good form. Hybridizing in yellow phals was greatly improved due to some of these hybrids. But there are other things to be accomplished, I think.

One cross that hasn't been registered is GSC with violacea in any form. This is something I think should be considered. I know I read that others have actually made this cross, but I haven't seen any follow-up on it. And seditious though it may be, I would like to put one of the Norton violaceas on GSC. In fact, when my GSC blooms, it's the first cross I intend to make. Rightly or wrongly, I think there's a lot to learn from this. And as with all crosses, it must be made with one eye focused on the present and one on the future.

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rangiku
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by rangiku » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:42 am

Here's a photo from Bob Bedard of GSC.

Image

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Mithrandir
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Mithrandir » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:47 am

That's a great idea!!! :D I still think the old hybrids are worth breeding with.
Jason

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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by loujost » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:15 pm

I agree. I tried making that cross and other similar ones, but my GSCs never produced seed, though they always made nice-looking pods that teasingly turned out to be empty).

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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by TxRobNLA » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:12 pm

One of the greatest values in breeding with Golden Sands 'Canary' is using it as the pod parent and putting a diploid on it to produce tetraploids. You could presumably end up with some interesting things with the right parent's on it.

As a parent it is extremely dominate though. Very hard to get anything other than yellow with spots. I would be tempted to put a good Fintje Kunriawati on it so that you get both violace and pulchra in the mix. I have a GS that I keep thinking I'll do some breeding with and I just never get around to it.

When Robert was breeding with it his main goal was to remake Golden Amboin and Golden Bells using modern amboinensis and venosa. The results were very similar in quality to the original cross.

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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Brian Bilyeu » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:19 am

While you are at it, maybe try remake of Bamboo Baby?

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Los Christabel
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Los Christabel » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:27 pm

Let me posit another thing, one that might provoke comment, but not intended to be provocative. There are 122 crosses registered with GSC as the pod parent, but also 16 registered with GSC as the pollen parent, including Liu Tuen-Shen. Allowing for error and disingenuousness, it argues that GSC has been used successfully as a pollen parent, which is unheard-of in a triploid plant. But GSC is hardly typical, is it?

Is there room for hope that along with 3n ovules, it can also make 3n pollen? And if so, what difference will there be in the color and shape of the offspring? This calls for experimentation, don't you think? :dance:

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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by loujost » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:49 pm

Pollen has a slight variance in ploidy. Every now and then some grains of a triploid will be diploid or tetraploid. But registration error may be more likely.

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Los Christabel
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Los Christabel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:09 am

I considered that. But given that at least one other of the crosses was registered by Irene Dobkin, who also registered Liu Tuen-Shen, it stands to reason to give her the benefit of the doubt. And also explains why there are far fewer than if GSC was used as the pod parent.

Keep in mind that I don't know, but I'm going to try. That's the basis of experimentation. :pray:

The reason that all GSC offspring looks like GSC is because it's providing 3/4ths of the genes. Line breeding might prove to be useful in getting more color/shape expression.

stock
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by stock » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:02 pm

I knew most of the old breeders that used Golden Sands 'Canary' and have used it many times myself. It has never, to my knowledge, been successfully used as a pollen parent. There are a number of other cultivars of Golden Sands and some of those did breed as a pollen parent but they were aneuploid and the progeny were usually a mess. Errors in regristration account for most, if not all, crosses attributed to GSC as a pollen parent. It is genetically possible that GSC could be infrequently successful as a pollen parent because analysis of its pollen chromosomes revealed a number of triploid, unreduced pollen grains along with many, many aneuploid ones. I even found a pollen grain with a single chromosome in it !! To my way of thinking, the use of Golden Sands 'Canary' is not likely to produce much in the way of useful material in the present breeding environment. For one thing, many of the progeny, even with when mated with diploids, are aneuploid. You really have to count every plant you select for breeding to see if it is really tetraploid or quite aneuploid. While some good tetraploids have resulted from using GSC, many more were just "junk" including many of the triploids that were produced.
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Los Christabel
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Los Christabel » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:44 am

I understand. Thank you, Dean. :D Any progress on your end of town?

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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by stock » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:46 pm

Some good progress in yellow breeding. Lots of nice yellows in my breeding collection now but none from Golden Sands 'Canary'. I still keep the plant just to remind me of how far we have come since I acquired it in the 70s.
Dean
Albert Dean Stock, Ph.D.

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Los Christabel
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Los Christabel » Fri May 16, 2014 2:23 pm

My opinion is that it still has a lot to contribute. I look forward to the challenge.

I have noticed of late that the savvy Taiwanese breeders are starting to concentrate on primary hybrids, and working from there. With any luck, they've hit the sterility barrier and learned something from it. Which means that for a short time, we're kind of on equal footing. This is something I aim to take advantage of. Among other things, I think it's time to think outside the circle. Not every phalaenopsis is perfectly, or even imperfectly, round. Let's hear it for a different shape.

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rangiku
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by rangiku » Fri May 16, 2014 7:42 pm

Star-shaped Phals is where it's at!

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Los Christabel
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Re: Golden Sands 'Canary'-where do we go from here?

Post by Los Christabel » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:39 pm

I've pollinated GSC with a very good stuartiana var. nobilis--it seems to be thinking it over. No blossom drop yet. I have a couple other things I want to try if it doesn't take. One is a very nice schilleriana, and the other a Koodoo with remarkable coloring. There was an orchid show and sale last month. I invested a few dollars in a cornu-cervi (unbloomed) var. chalattadae with evil intentions. Other options wait in the wings, all either species or primary hybrids. I don't have to be beaten with a stick to see that of all the GSC hybrids of worth, not one has been with another complex hybrid. A GSC hybrid is like chocolate chips; never really meant to be taken on its own, but in combination with something else. :D

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