Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

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Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by naturegirl72 » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:52 am

:oops: Hello!

I'm growing orchids for over 15 years but never tried to cross/hybridize.
For the first time I try to get a capsule and ripe seeds.
Today I took two pollen from my Phal. Florabilis, which I like a lot. I put one pollen on my Phal. bellina and one on Phal. Liodoro.
The orchid breeder from whom I got the Florabilis years ago told me, that it wasn't easy to get the cross again (florabilis x amabilis), the capsules where mostly empty or of no use so it was vasted time and money for him. I'm a complete newbie on this and I concluded, that it would be probably better to take bellina as pod parent and florabilis as pollen parent. Don't know if this was a correct idea.
Does anyone know if there's a possiblity to get capsules from these crosses (Liodoro is not so important, I'm more interested in bellina x Florabilis, Liodoro x Florabilis would just be a nice side effect.)
Thank's for any replies!

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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by Ben Belton » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:20 pm

Welcome to the world of hybridizing. Unfortunately, its not always as easy as getting 2 nice flowers together.

I have know way of knowing, but there is a good chance that the amabilis used to make your Florabilis is a tetraploid. Many amabilis are. This means that is has double the number of chromosomes of wild type amabilis. The florensis used was probably diploid which means it had the normal amount of chromosomes. The crossing of a diploid and a tetraploid results in a triploid. Triploids have messed up genetics which make them mostly sterile. You might get a few seed using it as a pollen parent but probably not. Your best bet is to use it as a pod parent, but then it still might not work.

I can't find Liodoro listed in the RHS database.

There should be some good discussions of these type problems here. Search this section for information on "ploidy"

Good luck!!
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by peterlin » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:21 pm

Phal Liodoro is Phal Sweet Memory- most of which are aneuploid/triploid. With the exception of one or two cultivar that will yield few viable seeds, most will not breed as a pod parent or a pollen parent.
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by cjmack » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:21 pm

My Phal. Sweet Memory 'Bubbles' AM/AOS breeds like crazy as a pod and pollen parent. Produces tons of seeds. Maybe try that cultivar if you can get your hands on it. This will be one of the first plants I practice on with chromosome counting. I have always wondered about it since it does breed so good.
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by naturegirl72 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:48 pm

peterlin wrote:Phal Liodoro is Phal Sweet Memory- most of which are aneuploid/triploid. With the exception of one or two cultivar that will yield few viable seeds, most will not breed as a pod parent or a pollen parent.


Ben Belton wrote:Welcome to the world of hybridizing. Unfortunately, its not always as easy as getting 2 nice flowers together.

I have know way of knowing, but there is a good chance that the amabilis used to make your Florabilis is a tetraploid. Many amabilis are. This means that is has double the number of chromosomes of wild type amabilis. The florensis used was probably diploid which means it had the normal amount of chromosomes. The crossing of a diploid and a tetraploid results in a triploid. Triploids have messed up genetics which make them mostly sterile. You might get a few seed using it as a pollen parent but probably not. Your best bet is to use it as a pod parent, but then it still might not work.

I can't find Liodoro listed in the RHS database.

There should be some good discussions of these type problems here. Search this section for information on "ploidy"

Good luck!!


@Ben + Peter:

Thank you for your answers, thank you Ben for the long explanation, I know this takes from your free time :) - it was a very interesting and helpful explanation to me, as I said in the beginning, hybridizing is totally new to me, and yes, I'll check the other threads and read about it.



cjmack wrote:My Phal. Sweet Memory 'Bubbles' AM/AOS breeds like crazy as a pod and pollen parent. Produces tons of seeds. Maybe try that cultivar if you can get your hands on it. This will be one of the first plants I practice on with chromosome counting. I have always wondered about it since it does breed so good.


Thank you for letting me know your experiences, maybe I'm lucky with my first trial...

What I can say is that the flowers both of Phal. bellina and Phal. Liodoro are unchanged. Maybe it's a little early, but as I already noted - no changes since dec 25th.

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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by naturegirl72 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:42 am

Hello again :-)

The news are that the bellina flower is dying and Liodoro still unchanged. I suppose that you all were right with your assumption.
Thank's for your help!

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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by stock » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:04 am

Cj, the results from your Sweet memory 'Bubbles' are not typical and your plant may be different is some way from the original. I had a plant of it from the original plant and it was triploid and a poor breeder as pod parent and not at all as pollen parent as one would expect from a triploid. Either your plant is a mutated clone or else mis-identified. I doubt the latter because the plant is quite typical for a sweet memory.
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by cjmack » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:34 pm

I agree Dean. I have 3 Sweet Memory 'Bubbles' AM/AOS plants that came from 3 different places. All 3 blooms are near identical. 2 of the plants will not breed as pod nor pollen and I have tried them on the same plants that this one particular Sweet Memory has been bred to.
I have flasks of it bred to Vio Vio, violacea var indigo, venosa, H P Norton, Buena Jewel, Satoru, and gigantea. I also have pods growing now where I crossed Equalacea, George Vasquez and Meshach with it. These may all be crapaploids, but i did it as an experiment just to see the outcome and how the plan blooms and grows, as Sweet Memory is a very hardy grower.
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by peterlin » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:00 pm

If your SM breeds is viable as a pollen parent, it would suggest that it should be even ploidy (probably close to 4n).
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by naturegirl72 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:37 am

Hello again and thank you for all the posts.
Now I can say that definitely nothing happened with my Liodoro. As I said before you were right.
But I have a Phal. pantherina in bloom and the next days also Phal. schilleriana. On Alain's page I couldn't find this cross between the primaries. Maybe that would be a better chance for me to get a ripe seed capsule :roll:

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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by Ben Belton » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:51 am

Pantherina is now known as Cornu-cervi. Not sure there is a cross between those, but might help you better find out if there is.
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by Phal Fan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:06 pm

Ben Belton wrote:Pantherina is now known as Cornu-cervi. Not sure there is a cross between those, but might help you better find out if there is.


Could you provide more information on this (perhaps in a new thread). This is the first I have heard of it. What about borneensis and lamelligera?
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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by naturegirl72 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:54 pm

Ben Belton wrote:Pantherina is now known as Cornu-cervi. Not sure there is a cross between those, but might help you better find out if there is.


On Alain's page I found schilleriana x cornu cervi as Phal. Ayleen registered by T. Sukarya in 1980. No pics there. Somewhere I've read that schilleriana can be 2n (?) but I found nothing about pantherina. Maybe I don't know the right sources, yet. I'd like to use schilleriana as a pod parent - any suggestions and advice very welcome! :)
If this should now be moved to another place/thread - I don't know whether and how.

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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by pinonmountains » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:39 pm

Ben,

You wrote pantherina is now known as cornu-cervi. Have not heard that, but would be interested in learning more about that. What about borneensis?

is there anything to read in that context? Would be interested.

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Re: Newbie tries to get ripe seed capsule

Post by Ben Belton » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:15 pm

My fault.. I think I'm thinking of Phalaenopsis lamelligera.
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