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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:47 pm 
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I was able to coax one more picture out of the old battery.
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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Looks good. You'll have baby plants in no time.

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:07 am 
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One more, now that I have a battery for my better camera...

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Quick update on the stems. Most are doing good, but growth has slowed, and still no signs of roots. I'm wondering if they aren't getting enough gas exchange to thrive. One flask contaminated. Not sure how, (probably the lids) but I'm attempting a decontamination of it using H2O2 3%. I have in the past been successful in decontaminating stem flasks using H2O2 and giving it a good flush, but I have also lost a few stems as well... Anyways this has hastened my looking into proper flasks vs reused pickle jars... If I'm going to get serious about propagation, I really shouldn't cheap out too much...

BTW: When I've been posting Photos, I've been resizing them down so they fit on the screen decently, at least for my screen, are they fitting yours good or do I need to make them slightly smaller? 800w used to be the goal, but I recently up'd to 1000w, and want make sure they aren't too big for other people.


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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:46 pm 
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NHguy03276 wrote:
and still no signs of roots. I'm wondering if they aren't getting enough gas exchange to thrive.

Just be patient. They take awhile to acclimate to the change and then they will start growing again. They are probably getting enough gas. Dean used to use unvented jars and never had any trouble.


NHguy03276 wrote:
If I'm going to get serious about propagation, I really shouldn't cheap out too much...

I think there are cheaper options, but maybe not pickle jars. :-)
I used mason jars for years. They are relatively cheap and commonly available. You get the lids at Phytotech.

NHguy03276 wrote:
BTW: When I've been posting Photos, I've been resizing them down so they fit on the screen decently, at least for my screen, are they fitting yours good or do I need to make them slightly smaller? 800w used to be the goal, but I recently up'd to 1000w, and want make sure they aren't too big for other people.

I think 800 is probably fine for most things, but 1000 was probably best for the pic of the germinated seed.

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:13 am 
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As far as remedying flask contamination, while I've never done it myself, I have has a a few people tell me that putting a bit of Concentric Ag Garden Solution in the flask does the trick. The live microorganisms kill the pathogens and by "infecting" the protocorms and seedlings, "pump" nutrients into them, making them grow faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:36 pm 
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Ben Belton wrote:
I think there are cheaper options, but maybe not pickle jars. :-)
I used mason jars for years. They are relatively cheap and commonly available. You get the lids at Phytotech.



Well, Pickle Jars have one serious advantage. I pay $2.00 for the jar/lid, and it comes with all these free pickles :) ... In all honesty, the jars are great for flasking, they are about 4" across, wide mouth, and about 710ml in capacity. Even reusing the lids seems pretty solid, as long as I don't modify them. But I'm no longer trusting the modified lid/syringe filter membrane.... Any link to those mason jar lids? Phytotech has some great stuff, but if you don't know exactly what you are looking for, it can sometimes be difficult to find on their site. I wish I had know about the lids before I place my order for 10 of these https://phytotechlab.com/culture-vessel ... d-jar.html , I figured I'd try them out and see if I like them. They should be in next week.

raybark wrote:
As far as remedying flask contamination, while I've never done it myself, I have has a a few people tell me that putting a bit of Concentric Ag Garden Solution in the flask does the trick. The live microorganisms kill the pathogens and by "infecting" the protocorms and seedlings, "pump" nutrients into them, making them grow faster.


I'll definitely give it a shot (order placed).


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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:49 am 
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raybark wrote:
As far as remedying flask contamination, while I've never done it myself, I have has a a few people tell me that putting a bit of Concentric Ag Garden Solution in the flask does the trick. The live microorganisms kill the pathogens and by "infecting" the protocorms and seedlings, "pump" nutrients into them, making them grow faster.


Ray - Am I correct in assuming that the Solution should *not* be heated before adding to flasks, otherwise heat will kill the living organisms? If I did my own flasking, I would certainly make a habit of adding this to the finals in order to promote root growth. Back in the olden days, we added a wee bit of SuperThrive to the finals and it did promote HUGE leaf growth, but probably at the expense of root growth, on some level. Actually, our employees who did nothing but de-flask and plant in community trays preferred this, since they did not have to trim the short roots when planting the flats!

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Sorry I am slow to reply, working a really early shift and not getting much sleep.

NHguy03276 wrote:
Any link to those mason jar lids?

This should be the right thing. They sell a large lid too, but mason jars with the large opening aren't very common. I'd buy the pack of 12 and make sure they fit for what you can find locally. They used to sell some that had a vent already built in.
https://phytotechlab.com/closure-round- ... 70-mm.html

I wish you lived closer. Would give you a few dozen mason jars. I'm getting too old and fat to lug them up and down stairs.

NHguy03276 wrote:
Phytotech has some great stuff, but if you don't know exactly what you are looking for, it can sometimes be difficult to find on their site.

Don't get me started on their web page.

NHguy03276 wrote:
I wish I had know about the lids before I place my order for 10 of these https://phytotechlab.com/culture-vessel ... d-jar.html , I figured I'd try them out and see if I like them. They should be in next week.

Keep them and do some stem props in baby food jars. You'll be glad you did and enjoy the extra space to let them grow a little larger before you move them. Be sure to put that sealing film around them. They do not close tight.

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 Post subject: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:19 am 
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WaltonInlet wrote:
raybark wrote:
As far as remedying flask contamination, while I've never done it myself, I have has a a few people tell me that putting a bit of Concentric Ag Garden Solution in the flask does the trick. The live microorganisms kill the pathogens and by "infecting" the protocorms and seedlings, "pump" nutrients into them, making them grow faster.


Ray - Am I correct in assuming that the Solution should *not* be heated before adding to flasks, otherwise heat will kill the living organisms? If I did my own flasking, I would certainly make a habit of adding this to the finals in order to promote root growth. Back in the olden days, we added a wee bit of SuperThrive to the finals and it did promote HUGE leaf growth, but probably at the expense of root growth, on some level. Actually, our employees who did nothing but de-flask and plant in community trays preferred this, since they did not have to trim the short roots when planting the flats!
Yes Walton, that is correct.

Actually, I'd probably add a few milliliters of a mixture of KelpMax (diluted 1:250) and Garden Solution (1:100) to each "daughter" flask.

KelpMax has far more auxins than cytokinins, so that favors root growth (although you can expect faster plant growth, too), while the microorganisms in the Garden Solution will exude antibiotics that kill pathogens, and will "infect" the seedlings with mycelia and pump nutrients directly into the plants more efficiently than the roots can do so by themselves.

I find it very interesting how the kelp, the microorganisms and fertilizer work together to support each other and the plant. I have a summary of that [url="https://firstrays.com/getting-the-most-from-your-plants/"]HERE[/url].

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:33 pm 
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Ok, Well, I wasn't expecting to be here so soon, but do I need to be thinking about replating? Seems like it's getting a bit crowded in this flask, and it looks like it's drying up a bit more than I expected. Would those G9 babyfood jars be big enough for a couple dozen protocorms, or should I be looking at bigger?

Ben Belton wrote:
I wish you lived closer. Would give you a few dozen mason jars.


:) I wouldn't worry about it. My Step father was a old time Yankee, and wasn't happy unless we had canned at least 4 years worth of produce each growing season. I have access to hundreds of Ball mason jars of all types and sizes. I actually use 1 pt large mouth jars for drinking glasses as they were free. The fact that Phytotech sells lids that fit make me happy.

On the topic of those G9 jars/lids, yeah, I'll definitely use them, but I'm not impressed with the lids... Also what is your thoughts on Parafilm? I have a labrat friend that swears by it, but I'm curious what others think of it.

Anyways, This is one of the flasks as of today, 3/24:
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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:01 pm 
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NHguy03276 wrote:
do I need to be thinking about replating?

I'm always behind getting the flasking done. So I'd be thinking about it. You're more on top of things than me, so you have awhile. Your protocorms are still super tiny. I wait until they are a little larger before I do anything with them. They could fill up that flask as they grow. Not sure how to tell you what size. Smaller than a BBB, but a little bigger than they are now. When they are this small, they are hard to work with. They are almost there though.

NHguy03276 wrote:
Would those G9 babyfood jars be big enough for a couple dozen protocorms, or should I be looking at bigger?

I like to use larger jars. The problem is that you want to grow them until they have a few roots and are big enough to work with. If there are too many, their roots intertwine and they are a pain to pick apart. Too few and you have wasted a lot of space. A babyfood jar will hold a couple dozen, but by the time they are big enough to go into full strength media, they will be over crowded. Use a larger jar and put in 3-4 dozen. It will save you a lot of time. Other people may have different opinions.


NHguy03276 wrote:
On the topic of those G9 jars/lids, yeah, I'll definitely use them, but I'm not impressed with the lids... Also what is your thoughts on Parafilm? I have a labrat friend that swears by it, but I'm curious what others think of it.

Yeah, the lids don't screw down. I have had them sit for months with no contamination, but I feel that is the exception. There is no seal. I wouldn't trust them without some film. I have never used the parafilm. I have seen flasks other people have used, and I wasn't impressed. Also it's expensive. I've been using the stuff I posted the link to earlier for over a decade and had good success. It's cheaper and you get more. HERE is the link again.

I could send you some posts of flasks, protocorms, etc etc but it is late and got to get ready for work tomorrow. Remind me later in the week if you are interested and want to see anything specific.

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:19 am 
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If I may throw out another "thumbs up" for larger replate containers: in addition the the "untangling hassle" factor, the plants will grow better if they interfere less with each other.

Merritt Huntington once told me that to some extent, the phenols released into the medium is a defensive measure, meant to fend off competing plants. Overcrowding leads to greater competition.

Some related speculation on my part: the phenol poisoning is probably more likely in very slow-growing plant,as the seedlings just sit in it for a longer time. For a relatively fast-growing plant like phalaenopsis, that's going to come out pretty quickly, it's probably less of an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:03 am 
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I just wanted to take a minute to properly thank everyone who has shared their insights and support of my endeavors into the madness that is orchid propagation. No amount of "Book Learning" will ever trump actual experience, and being able to ask questions on the areas I might not full grasp after reading a paper/article has been amazing amount of help. Sometimes it seems like a little thing, such as pointing out the phenol build up in stem props isn't as big a deal as some people make it out to be has saved me several hours of work. My next batch of stem props is now at a little over 60 days, and still in their initial flasks, ready to be moved to growout flasks this weekend, where before, I would have fretted, and likely replated at least 2 additional times already.

In a number of ways, I feel like I've gotten myself in over my head with things moving much faster than I ever expected. My incubator is going to be nearly full when I finish replating the handful of stems and a couple flasks of seedlings, and I still have two additional pods due to dehisce about mid May. I can always build another incubator, but that isn't going to help the growout phase, in which I don't even have a greenhouse... Yet. Plans are underway, but it'll likely be fall by the earliest... It has been one wild ride so far, and there is still a long ways to go.

Anyways again, Thank you all for the support and encouragement.


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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:43 am 
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You can always give away or sell off replate flasks or seedlings (hint, hint).

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 Post subject: Re: Showing of my cloning attempt...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:02 pm 
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Hi everyone, It has been a little over a month since my last post, so I thought I'd give you a update.

First, the seedlings are coming along nicely, and they just reached what a buddy calls "the gnome hat" stage, and the flasks are getting crowded. I have a bunch of 1 qt mason jar slants prepped up, just waiting for a couple more days to make sure they are sterile...

Image
Image

I had a very odd situation with germination on this batch. I did three flasks, the two above with good germination, and one with no germination. At first I thought the flask with no germination was simply a little behind, but it has been almost 3 months now, and nothing... and I'm a little puzzled to explain it. All the flasks were made from the same batch of media, and sown at the same time from the same syringe used to sterilize the seeds...

Next: Stem Prop update.
I lost one of the Tying Shin Baby Smile stems due to contamination. The other three seem to have stopped growing at the moment, and I'm thinking I might lose another to it just giving up, but the other two are doing fine.

The Taida Pride Cupid stems are doing great. one even has the first root nub forming. The color looks a bit yellow in the Photo, but it's really just the flash. Both of these stems are a nice shade of green, and growing well....

Image
Image

Now this is where things get interesting. When I made up the flasks for the Taida Pride Cupid stems, I made up 5 flasks in those G9 baby food jars. I tried a different sterilization method, and they failed to properly sterilize. All 5 flasks contaminated, 3 days after I used 2 of them. I should have waited a little longer, but after 5 days of no sign of contamination, I used them.

this is one that I did not use:
Image

(Yeah, I'm getting the bad habit of not disposing of contaminated flasks quickly.)
After considering my options, I decided to do nothing, feeling that if the contamination got too bad, that the stems were large enough that there was a good chance they might survive in a non-sterile "sphag in bag" condition, and that I wanted to give them as much time in the nutrient media as possible. I was surprised to see that the contamination never encroached on the plants, and I assume it was the plant's own immune system that kept it at bay. you can see some of it in one of the pictures above.

Anyways, this is what's been happening in my 'Lab'. For my next trick, I'll do it again... The next pod has ripened.


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