JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

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brenda
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JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by brenda » Sun May 10, 2015 6:44 am

Just wondering.
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JimL
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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by JimL » Tue May 12, 2015 5:19 pm

I'm committed to breeding 2n phals so I have limited space. And I'm just not interested in 4n Phals any more.

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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by doreen » Wed May 13, 2015 8:14 am

That space thing again. There are only so many orchids that we can house and find the time to care for properly. I have had to get serious on evaluating my orchids as to if they are "worth" the growing room they take.

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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by Botan » Fri May 15, 2015 10:28 am

Speaking of which, is it possible to distinguish how much n is some phal just by looking at it?

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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by Ben Belton » Fri May 15, 2015 3:40 pm

Botan wrote: is it possible to distinguish how much n is some phal just by looking at it?
4n Phals often have certain characteristics, but it is no guarantee as there are plenty of examples of plants with and without those characteristics that are not what they appear. There are also those plants that are caught somewhere between like 3n. There is no way to tell.

If anyone tries to sell you a plant they say is 4n, and you are skeptical, ask them how they know. They usually stammer and say well, it has a wide lip or something. That does not make it 4n. The chromosomes of the plant or its parents somewhere had to be counted in a lab.
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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by Botan » Sun May 17, 2015 9:34 am

Thank you Ben! I'm still far from discussing the ploidity with the vendors from which I can purchase, and I don't think they'll be so chatty. I was just curious. :) Is it summarized somewhere which characters may play the role of clues for 4n?

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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by DPfarr » Sun May 24, 2015 7:11 pm

Would you have any problems growing polyploidal appendiculata species? Assuming you want to grow them in the first place.

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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by naoki » Tue May 26, 2015 3:51 pm

Flow Cytometry is much easier than chromosome counting (which is super tedious), but the machine may not be accessible to most people.

Another easy way is to check the size of stomata guard cells. In a wide range of plants, guard cell size is correlated with ploidy (I'm not sure with Phal, though). Actually other cells are larger, but guard cells are big, so it is easy to tell the differences. You put the nail polish under the leaves, and wait for 10 min. or so. Then you can peel off the nail polish. Then you can mount it between slide and cover glass and observe under a compound microscope (10x or 40x objective lens with 10x eyepieces is enough).

Biologically, synthetic tetraploids could be fairly screwed up in terms of gene regulation.

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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by zxyqu » Tue May 26, 2015 4:51 pm

Flow would be great but I really doubt most have access to a cytometer. I explored this when I was still in a lab space as I had easy access but to be honest I don't think it's as easy as implied. A better idea would be fluorescent microscopy with dyes for the individual chromosomes (like they have for humans and other species). Would be a fun project if you could get access to the scope, but they are pricey.

As for guard cell counts, I've done this for a number of crosses but would need to confirm them with actual counts. The one catch is each cross would be unique size wise (most likely). And even within those of the same cross you'll get variability. I don't think it will work really from a global standpoint but comparing the same cross could be valid. I did this for a colchicine treated cross from kingfisher, and identified one that had larger cells compared to the other four plants tested. Not 2x but 1.5-1.7x the size. Could be a hit but a true count would still be needed.


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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by stock » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:53 pm

Actually, flow cytometry is not easier than counting by chromosomes. Chromosome work is quite easy if you have the equipment and a little training. Just not many people that care enough to go that far with it. In general, species plants are 2x while many larger hybrids are 4x, other than that you are on your own !!!
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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by TxRobNLA » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:13 pm

I found out the hard way that guard cell measurements are not always an accurate indicator. Guard cell measurement is a relative measure. You need a known diploid from the same line of breeding to compare with the suspected tetraploid to get a better idea if it's a polyploid or not and even then I have run into tetraploid cultivars from colchicine treated batches that show very little visual indication of being a polyploid.

On the flip side you can end up with a really vigorous diploid cross, especially with primaries that is showing some hybrid vigor and everything is larger on the plant including the guard cells. But it's still diploid.

Nature does not make it easy on us that is for sure. ;-)

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Re: JimL, why don't u grow 4N phals?

Post by naturegirl72 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:51 am

For a newbie - what do you need to do chromosome counting - I mean, it won't be as easy as just having a quite good microscope at home?! If the question is "too stupid" or answering would take way too long, just let me know... ;)
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