Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issues

Topics on phalaenopsis breeding, What are you looking to create?
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elpaninaro
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Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issues

Post by elpaninaro » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:26 pm

Good evening all,

Peter- thank you for adding me to the forum. The late 80s and early 90s were a real high point in my orchid days. I was in high school- and then college- growing, starting to breed and also selling at shows for some of the bigger growers. At the time, I developed a deep love for Phalaenopsis which remains to this day. And so, my current goal is to remake Phalaenopsis Orchid world from the ground up using selected tetraploid species as my starting point. I loved that cross, and I am hopeful that this approach might yield some even greater cultivars as well as more successful breeders.

I am discovering with all the taxonomic changes- including new knowledge that changes labels of the past- that this is not necessarily going to start out as easy as hoped. Obviously for Luedde-violacea I am going to need to use what is now known as Phal. bellina. So, got that down.

What I had not expected was the difficulty that would arise with amabilis and its frequent confusion with aphrodite. I recently purchased a selection of flowering size amabilis from Taiwan- a sib cross using 4N parents. They are flowering now, and quite stunning, but in the lip they are looking very aphrodite- though not conclusively so on all points. In researching the issue I found a thread here from 2012, that suggested aphrodite is the most likely actual parent in a great number of older crosses using amabilis- and so now I am wondering if perhaps Deventeriana 'Treva' possibly had what we would now call aphrodite as a parent versus true amabilis.

I would be grateful for any thoughts on all of this. At this point, I am pretty well set to move forward (I hope!). I have a large selection of 4N bellini starting to come into flower, from which I can select a good candidate or two for breeding. Same for amabilis as noted above. For amboinensis, a good breeder kindly sold me two really good select plants from his collection- one 2N and one 4N (I liked them both so much I could not leave the 2N behind), and lueddemanniana is coming soon once some testing is done- but should have a 4N option there as well so I can start making the initial primary hybrids this season.

So if my "amabilis" are what I should likely have- then I am all set. My sole interest here is to try and use whatever was actually used to make the primary hybrids that form the building blocks of Orchid World- regardless of what they were called then versus now.

And to my question on amabilis- here are shots of 4 of the better seedlings from the plants bloomed so far. They got a bit dinged up in the rain and high winds we had here in Dallas over the weekend, so unfortunately they are not as pristine as they were a few days ago- but still this should tell the tale.
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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

Post by peterlin » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:12 am

You are welcome.

Somewhere on this forum I recalled Dean Stock has talked about Rex Smith actually used a complex white to make Phal Deventeriana. It’s not a true primary amabilis x amboinensis. Bill Mitchell of Sky Island orchids remade Phal Deventeriana but did not quite get the same result as ‘Treva’ near 4n - which is the key to the success of many outstanding hybrid. Dean Stock is on Facebook so you can connect with him to get his view on this. I haven’t had time to find what he said. I just recalled that it was something he talked about.

Phal Luedde-violacea is a bit problematic because we suspect it was Phal pulchra and not Phal lueddemanniana used in the background. At the time Phal pulchra was a variety of Phal lueddemanniana.
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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

Post by DPfarr » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:51 am

I’d buy some tetraploid Orchid World if that’s any incentive to your endeavor.

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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

Post by TxRobNLA » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:53 am

I also suspect that what we think of as Luedde-violacea has bellina in it. The form of the modern Luedde-violacea's does not match results that we are getting with pulchra x violacea crosses. What I don't know is if the pattern from bellina would be dominate. So it's also possible that the Luedde-violacea's were really Samera x pulchra.

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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

Post by TxRobNLA » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:59 am

In terms of amabilis vs aphrodite, it's very likely that a lot of these older crosses were using hybrids that were some mix between amabilis and aphrodite. Though Deventeriana is old enough, that it may have been amabilis.

I do a lot of "recreations" for the purposes of the coerulea breeding that I do and I spend a lot of time trying to work back what the original crosses really were. In many cases it's almost impossible to know for sure. You just have to know how different species breed and then apply knowledge to results from the original crosses to make an educated guess at what was really in them.

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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

Post by Bob » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:01 pm

I've always been a fan of Orchid World also for the fragrance.

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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

Post by stock » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:19 pm

Making newer versions of old but good hybrids with 4x ploidy was once a goal of mine. I developed a few 4x species populations such as P. venosa 4x (red mahogany breeding) and some 4x P. amboinensis but then got side tracked with Cactus genetics and taxonomy. I'm back at breeding Phals again due to the influence of a certain wily Canadian. The goal of breeding a 4x Orchid World is going to be difficult if you mean something that looks like the Orchid world we are used to from the original cross registered in 1984 because that hybrid used P. Deventeriana 'Treva' that was a chance 4x plant in what was otherwise a lackluster 3x cross of a large white (probably aprodite x amabilis) and P. amboinensis. All of the photos of large white flowers above in the post that started this discussion are complex hybrids of P. aphrodite x P. amabilis but mainly showing 4x P. aphrodite lip structure. Recreating a good version of P. Orchid World should be fairly easy if one can recreate a 4x version of P. Malibu Imp. That hybrid may be difficult to pin down but there are come good clues. I'm not sure that any of the original Malibu Imp plants survive but if so, they could be cloned and colchicine treated to produce a 4x version. Without that avenue, it gets more difficult because, as noted above in the discussion, we are not entirely sure how (with what) Malibu Imp was made. Still, I think it could be done and a very nice 4x version created. With our present DNA technology, we could determine what actually made Malibu Imp but it is still rather expensive to compare genomic sequences. It may be that P. Deventeriana 'Treva' still exists ( I lost mine years ago) and if so that would speed up the process since I counted 'Treva' as a 4x plant. That would leave only the Malibu Imp to reproduce at 4x level. Interesting !!! One potential (additional) problem is that when you combine a 4x Malibu Imp with 4x Deventeriana, you might not get the same results since you are now combining plants of equal ploidy and more ancestral DNA.
Albert Dean Stock, Ph.D.

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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

Post by elpaninaro » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:45 pm

Thank you everyone. I really appreciate the educated and informative commentary. I should perhaps be a little overwhelmed- but on the contrary, I now feel more determined than ever to see where this might lead. Good reminder Bob on the fragrance- I had almost forgotten about that benefit. Been ages since I had one in the greenhouse. And DPfarr thank you for the vote of confidence- I am getting a lot of interest in this project- but as noted below I am now discovering why this has not been fully attempted with advertised success already.

Dr. Stock- thank you for your feedback on the seedlings I am blooming out. Given what I have researched on Deventeriana- which you have also confirmed- it would appear I am in a good place having in hand what appear to be seedlings that have both species in the background. Where that leaves me with presenting one of these plants (#3- and the one I think is my choice for breeding) for AOS Judging is a quandary I am not sure how to handle- but for the purposes of the project it would seem these plants are a good place to start.

TxRob- I must confess I know/knew little of Luedde-violacea. Given that so many Orchid World clones have some degree of concentrated red-purple color around the lip and down the insides of the lateral sepals- I share your view that it must be bellina (or violacea var Borneo as it was back then.)

But interestingly earlier today I reactivated my long-dormant AOS membership and added the Orchids Online feature so I could research past awards. And funny enough- looking at all of the older Luedde-violacea awards (1987 and prior- then you have a gap until 1999), the flowers tended to be near solid red throughout. So there was none of that bellina patterning to be seen- however when you compare to the more recent awards, the difference becomes clear in the shape- notably where the older flowers have that slight reflexive curvature along the inside of the lateral sepals. And in looking at those old photos, I now think I see why pulchra is suspected as being a parent as well.

So, at this point it looks as though this is going to be a bit of a compromise on many fronts. And I would welcome thoughts on what I plan to do.

I will breed one of my "amabilis" plants- likely #3 in the photos unless another better one comes along in the next few weeks- with the 4N amboinensis that has been a proven breeder for the prior owner to get Deventeriana going.

Then, if the stars align in the next few weeks- I will do Luedde-violacea with one of my "violacea 'Borneo'" if one of those 4N seedlings blooms out with a very high quality, plus the lueddemanniana selected plant I should have in hand. That will be one of the recent 4N potential lueddemanniana out of Taiwan- the really big ones with the hot pink to magenta heavy bars. May not be the L-V of old, but that should prove an interesting cross at any rate.

Meantime- in more good news, I think I have tracked down a Deventeriana 'Treva' from which I may be able to secure a prop. And tonight I put out word to same crowd for old Malibu Imps. I know it will be expensive, but now that I am committed- I will track down these plants if I can, have full testing done and share the results. Plus- having those plants in hand would allow for the approach you suggest Dr. Stock to try and do a truer remake. Fingers crossed all around.

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Re: Phal Orchid World remade from start as 4N- amabilis issu

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